Derek Tatton Interview

Derek Tatton Interview

Derek Tatton

Sharon Clancy interviewing Derek Tatton online about his life and how he has contributed to adult education.

Sharon Clancy

Online Meeting

Lost Spaces and Untold Stories in Adult Education

February 27, 2021

Luc Sanders

Copyright Sharon Clancy

615 MB mp4 file

1280 x 720 pixels

25 frames/second

English

Video

United Kingdom

SC We're going to focus today as it's part of our what Raymond Williams means to me discussions on Derek’s lifelong or at least partial lifelong experience and engagement with Raymond Williams so I just wondered Derek if you could say a bit more about your early engagement with him - I understand it was through Malcolm Pittock’s work who people may know –
DT Yes I attended Malcolm’s WEA classes in Crewe were my first experience of wea classes was with Malcolm and it was a very interesting and lively experience because Malcolm was teaching uh a group of about a dozen people in the front room of somebody's house in Crewe
SC I believe Malcolm introduced you to culture and society when it had not long been out?
DT That's right and the long revolution, both books had been published within a year or two of Malcolm’s course which we were sharing together and he uh very much introduced me to those books and referred to them in detail quoting from them in the course and i and others found it quite a revelation and particularly when he referred to the essay culture is ordinary which also was contemporary with that period yes that idea of culture being ordinary is of course fundamental for our very famous foundation absolutely
Absolutely
DT Everybody can contribute to the debates and discussions on culture because we all experience it in our own ways yeah so both Malcolm
SC But it must have been also extraordinary to read Raymond Williams almost contemporaneously
DT That's right it was it was an introduction to him uh that very few other people at the time of course had because Malcolm was in advance as it was of uh the period because he had latched on to Raymond Williams, the books were published he was ahead of the game and he was therefore leading us ahead of the game by you know introducing us to this very important figure
And how do you think people perceived Raymond Williams at that time? did you get a sense of that or how Malcolm did or?
Certainly Malcolm uh knew from the beginning that this writer was going to be significant yeah, yes enduring significance and Malcolm therefore communicated that others and a number of others I think saw that and appreciated it too because i suppose it was the Williams uh autobiographical yes and you know about this but you've written about it and are very much involved in it uh the the sort of life uh experience of people uh written down being so important to not them but to other people and so Williams reflecting on his uh Welsh , early Welsh learning at school and uh from his father mainly from his father and not so much from his mother of course but uh that was important for us seeing that uh the early years early years from the year one really what we imbibe and becomes part of our culture yeah and that is important for us for other people through the CND
you were on the platform i think you mentioned in your memoir and that's where you inc or you were were you asked to speak in an official capacity as an officer i think you said and
That was um my second year yes relatively it was quite a large political organization yeah it was second one to the conservative association in terms of number of uh students members yes so and i was quite pleased with that so when i as the secretary organized a uh a forum debate on nuclear weapons and nuclear war and
set it up the largest lecture rule
in the universities to accommodate
several hundred people who turned up to
it i
i chaired that session which was a real
moment
for me because of course the panel
was exceptionally distinguished by any
standards
absolutely i mean raymond williams but
there was george steiner
charles feinstein economist university
uh lord weatherborne uh
sydney wetterburne who was a lawyer and
his wife
who's also a lawyer so
uh and uh john robertson
the the the economist i forgot the name
right
uh anyway she was a uh nobel prize
although it was on the platform with me
chairing the uh
the group and um
amazingly i surprised myself to some
extent i mean i was quite confident
doing this
yeah role with these people
i wasn't in that sense i was a bit
similar to
raymond williams in the sense that not
overall
yeah yes he never was was he never he
never comes over as being overruled by
anyone
that's right he uh he comments on that
in
that uh my cambridge yeah absolutely i
mean i i just get this tremendous sense
of
inner confidence not so much confidence
it's not an arrogance not at
all it's a self-belief almost um born
out was
born out of his community i think he
goes back to his wealth
community yeah that strength the inner
strength
unswayable somehow yeah that's right
yeah
yeah yeah sure so did you meet him then
then so
obviously you met him on the panel but
did you get to actually talk to him
yes i i i met him through CND
yeah and then i mean i started attending
his lectures as soon as i got to
cambridge because of course i've
had this helpful introduction through
Malcom Pittock
unlike most of the people my my
contemporise came from
knew about him yeah i knew about him and
at that particular time
he wasn't uh as well known as him but
very quickly became
uh yeah in two or three years
but during my first year but i knew of
him and started attending his lectures
and i um
i went up to him after the lecture
uh simply to tell him that i
knew Malcolm Pittock who i knew
had corresponded with Raymond Williams

okay he sent him uh generous
comments and replies to his letters
so i introduced myself to him as we were
walking towards the car that he got
in the car park and he was immediately
very interested
in my mountain bitter Crewe connections
and so he said well get in and gave me a
lift in this car
back to my college
and uh talking on the way and
you know especially real interest in my
experience from railways and through
um their background and so on so that
was
really the start of but then
from that point on he became a um
a fairly close or i would even call it
9:27
friendship i'd develop
with him because he was very amenable
and open and friendly
yeah i was struck
by that in your memoir again because
there's been all these
as we know both know so many kind of um
portrayals of him as being um a bit
9:44
opaque and difficult to connect with
9:46
as students and some people have gone
9:49
beyond that even you know and uh
9:52
clearly you didn't have that experience
9:54
at all because he connected with you as
9:56
a human being didn't he
9:58
i think so and i have written about this
10:00
in my
10:01
yeah and
10:07
[Music]
10:11
i think unlike people even like terry
10:14
eagleton or
10:15
david hare who clearly uh
10:19
related with him knew him talked with
10:21
him
10:22
but they felt that he was actually
10:26
uh not particularly that interested in
10:30
students
10:36
yeah and now to some degree i
10:40
can see where they're coming from yeah
10:43
because yes he was
10:46
a bit opaque and difficult to connect with as students and some people have gone beyond that even”. Derek’s view was that Williams’ most vocal decriers came from a particular privileged background and needed very little additional support. “His attitude I think was really that people like David Hare and Terry Eagleton didn't really need Raymond Williams or anybody else but that they could read, they could communicate with each other. Whereas somebody like me who could fail at the 11th place - I mean they knew that and that was why he was really quite warm and accommodating to me and indeed agreed to teach me when in my third year at Cambridge”.
i
11:32
i sent him a note and asked if
11:35
i could meet him
11:38
to discuss the possibility of him being
11:41
my supervisor
11:42
in my third year because
11:46
i'd already got a supervisor also he
11:49
wasn't too chopped but i was
11:52
wanting to move to another supervisor
11:54
but
11:55
i met with him and raymond williams
11:57
immediately agreed
11:58
to take me on which was quite something
12:01
because
12:02
that meant an hour a week extra for him
12:06
uh teaching so it went quite against
12:09
what Terry
12:10
and david and others were saying and he
12:13
wasn't interested in
12:15
teaching
12:20
you absolutely so and but
12:24
those are the reasons i think why yeah
12:26
he did that it was
12:27
because he remained of course and you
12:29
know this because you
12:30
uh communicated to
12:34
you with him throughout his whole
12:37
teaching career he remained interested
12:39
and involved in that
12:40
education and he would give lectures he
12:43
would uh
12:44
go to ruskin college and give a lecture
12:47
yeah
12:48
you know in other words giving his time
12:50
and
13:05
i absolutely i agree with you and i i
13:07
mean i wonder about terry eagleton and
13:09
david hare i mean are they from more
13:10
privileged backgrounds i don't know
13:12
anything about them truthfully in terms
13:13
of their origin or background anyway
13:16
um well terry is not in terms of his
13:18
background he was
13:20
from salford and from a very very uh
13:24
underprivileged background but of course
13:27
having
13:29
done so well at grammar school and uh
13:38
[Music]
13:43
and therefore not in that sense needing
13:47
just support from raymond williams which
13:49
is what i'm saying and
13:51
david david came from a
13:55
quite privileged uh middle class
13:57
background
13:59
and everything so he was very
14:02
self-assured and confident yes young
14:05
students
14:06
yeah so that that was the difference i
14:10
think between
14:11
us
14:14
and i wasn't alone on that there were
14:16
some other uh
14:18
working class uh mature students
14:21
yeah yeah taught
14:24
and connected with for similar reasons
14:27
yeah
14:29
and so he was um what would he do with
14:32
you then on a weekly basis would he
14:34
would you take a text or would you
14:36
would you be looking at essays or yeah
14:39
he did he did
14:41
he did what was required of him as a
14:45
supervisor named uh set an essay
14:48
related to the tri-cross exam
14:51
so yeah but actually
14:55
he like me wasn't that interested in
14:58
the exam work he was more interested in
15:01
the themes and the issues that
15:03
we were going to discuss and debate yes
15:08
i mean again i think i've written about
15:10
this in some detail in my
15:12
uh the book i'm still working on
15:15
uh on one session
15:18
um he um he asked me how i
15:23
very informed as we started the session
15:25
uh
15:26
how did what we've been doing this last
15:28
week and i
15:29
said oh i went to see
15:32
the latest pinter film
15:34
[Music]
15:37
the servant um and um
15:42
he then said oh i've not seen
15:45
yet tell me about it talk talk through
15:48
and we spent a good half hour
15:52
talking
15:57
[Music]
16:05
of course
16:08
uh and and that was
16:11
wonderful for me but of course it wasn't
16:14
focused on the exam that i was
16:23
but it didn't matter too much to him
16:24
either yes exactly
16:26
he he was enjoying uh
16:30
yeah in ways that he wouldn't
16:33
do so much with some of the slightly
16:36
younger
16:37
students who would be more focused on
16:41
they want to get to you know the exam
16:44
and yeah
16:45
tell us what to write and you know how
16:48
to approach
16:51
so did you ever get a sense of raymond
16:52
williams politics in your
16:54
exchanges with him do you think or oh
16:57
yes
16:58
very much so i mean yeah i i i was aware
17:01
okay martin little you know introducing
17:05
me to
17:06
his political science but i was aware
17:09
as i think most people were because of
17:11
course pretty well everything he wrote
17:14
and had a social political socialist
17:18
ambulance but he did manage to combine
17:22
the traditional respect for
17:27
objectivity and impartiality indeed
17:32
[Music]
17:40
but also knew that he um
17:43
when he was released said instance
17:45
editing the
17:47
important series new thinkers library
17:51
60s he knew that as an
17:55
editor of a series that was
17:59
social and politically allied he had to
18:02
then
18:04
for instance edit a book
18:08
uh employ because he was in the position
18:11
to
18:11
decide who might write
18:16
a member of the conservative party and
18:19
he was okay
18:20
doing that knowing that this was uh
18:24
what needed to be done for
18:33
[Music]
18:38
how did you maintain your relationship
18:40
with raymond did you have maintain your
18:42
relationship with him
18:44
yes i did at a distance of course yes
18:48
[Music]
18:49
i was working for the wea
18:53
but of course when i started my
18:56
uh research thesis
18:59
of you um i was doing that part time
19:03
all the time yeah yeah
19:06
so i was very busy doing other things as
19:09
well
19:10
but um i knew that i wanted
19:14
raymond williams to know that i was
19:16
doing uh
19:17
an ou uh thesis and referring
19:20
to his work within it so i did
19:24
contact him about that and he was
19:27
pleased
19:28
to be my referee for you know because
19:32
obviously when we did
19:33
references and get support from the ou
19:37
and i kept in touch with him through
19:39
that
19:40
not very much i mean but sporadically
19:44
yes send him uh what's my written
19:49
and room and
19:52
tell him what i was doing
19:55
and he was very good with that
19:58
responding and
20:01
so i i was
20:05
fortunate to have that support
20:07
absolutely
20:08
yeah and did it did he read the thesis
20:11
and comment at all or did he ever
20:14
do do you know if you read your words
20:16
yes oh yes
20:17
yes positively
20:19
[Music]
20:29
[Music]
20:32
i was really struck by your comment on
20:34
structure of feeling and how you applied
20:36
that
20:37
almost that analysis of looking back
20:40
with the lens of you as
20:42
an older man on your younger self yes
20:46
and i i thought that was a rather
20:48
beautiful idea
20:50
um yes um yeah i
20:54
i i i'm quite pleased with that
20:57
development of my thinking about and
21:00
it's based on kierkegaardreally uh the idea of usall of us being different selvesat different stages in our lives so that uh i mean i'm now a very different personto what i was 15 years ago 30 years ago and yet of course they're all interlinked and connected but the key thing is the the concept of the the different person reallyand um that'sbeen quite important i think me lookingbackyeah development and historyto be awarethat one is a different uh different
self
um i suppose i'm thinking of that idea
22:00
that
22:02
of structure of feeling being connected
22:04
to
22:05
your community self your inner self your
22:09
the sense of the art and the culture and
22:11
how that reflects that kind of
22:13
connection
22:15
between us very very good
22:18
williams phrase that because feelings
22:21
of course are subjective and
22:39
yeah so it's very much
22:42
of how williams writes i think eric has
22:46
got very
22:46
good views on this i think that his
22:48
His writing combines the personalthe fluid the uh subjectivewith the structure the analysisand so that's an important part of his contribution i think
23:09
as a writer i totally agree and it's
23:11
almost like he's grasping after the
23:13
encode isn't it something that you can't
23:16
actually tangibly hold
23:21
[Music]
23:32
yeah absolutely yeah it's tremendously
23:35
helpful to me i must admit
23:36
i suppose the other things i i i i was
23:39
curious about
23:40
you know various things obviously um but
23:43
um
23:44
i i wondered about uh interestingly when
23:47
we were talking um with the when i was
23:49
talking with raymond williams
23:50
children um um they talked about this
23:54
idea
23:55
of raymond williams being a narco
23:57
syndicalist
23:58
that's right yes yes
24:02
really just wondering what your take on
24:04
that is because i've been thinking about
24:05
it ever since
24:08
well i think they are
24:11
very perceptive in the sense about his
24:15
position on that and again it's that
24:18
combination of anarcho
24:20
meaning like anarchistic engagements of
24:24
uh open and flexible and hard to
24:27
definitely free almost yeah
24:30
meaning
24:37
[Music]
24:52
connections and so
24:56
margaret cole writes about this in her
24:59
biography
25:00
uh autobiography about their uh
25:03
her husband's or uh anarcho
25:07
seduced their tendencies
25:11
very interesting it's been brilliant
25:14
thank you to everest a lot it's been
25:15
such a privilege
25:17
of course you enjoyed it yeah it's been
25:19
jewish carrying on
25:21
thanks derek i really appreciate it

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Sharon Clancy